24 March 2006

Relationships and Poker: Part III

I've gotten interesting emails from folks on this series on relationships and poker. I've also reached out to bloggers and pros to give their thoughts on the subject. Barry Greenstein got back to me within a couple of hours with some interesting content, and I hope to have a nice postscript to this late next week. Some of the fellow bloggers I've reached out to have come back with comments like this: "I'd be glad to, but you know I'm single and don't have any problems with my poker and relationships." I'd like to recommend to April that we organize some sort of Blind Date Poker Tourney in conjunction with the WPBT this summer. I mean, poker bloggers need some love, right?

We've looked at why wives or significant others disapprove and warning signs to be alert to. Finally, we'll look at what do we do, an aspiring poker player in a relationship.

A common refrain from alot of emails I've gotten is that poker really isn't much different than other things that can consume us. I agree for the most part, but I think there are a few unique characteristics that poker doesn't share with other gambling pursuits. First is when we play. If you play poker regularly, then you're quickly pushed to playing at nights and weekends. Go to the Bellagio at 9:00AM on a Wednesday ready for some juicy games and all you're left with are a bunch of smelly players from the night and your hardcore grinders. Nothing fishy here. OK, well let's fire up our online friends. Party here at 7:45AM? Six $5/10 full tables going. FullTilt? One. Stars? One. UB? One. If you play regularly, you're almost forced to play when your wife, family, or girlfriend are available or when they're asleep. Certainly folks play during the day, but there are 2-5x more players at every card room after 5:00 than in the mornings. Second is risk. Most hobbies or avocations have a finite investment. Golf is fairly straightforward. If you're into crochet, you can do that with some standard outlay. As poker players, we are constantly embracing risk, which brings uncertainty into our lives and our relationship. Finally is travel. For the hardcore player, you're simply gone alot if you don't live near a casino. There is mystery surrounding that travel as well, what with the murky world of casinos and gambling. If your wife or girlfriend aren't into gaming, then it can be a scary thing for them to think about.

With that, here are some things that I think we can do to address poker in our relationships. This is a bit of a laundry list rather than any great psycho-babble wisdom so take any nuggets you find.
  • Show your hand Lay out what poker is for you. Talk about your bankroll, how you've funded it, the stakes that you play. Candor will set the context for your play going forward.
  • Identify her concerns It may not take much probing, but identify what her biggest concerns about poker are. It is important to understand what her frustrations and fears are so that you can address those. Fearing financial ruin is much different than not giving her quality time. If you understand where she is, it will help you going forward.
  • Put up the fence Decide what is off-limits. It might be playing with the kids around. It may be bringing chips when visiting in-laws (a rule set for me). It may be playing with extended family around. Non-negotiables are helpful to avoid conflict that can be prevented.
  • Proper bankroll management As I've been working on this (especially reaching out to pros), one stunner struck me: the absolute best poker players in the entire world have lost their bankroll. And some of these have had to borrow to get back on their feet. These are the best players in the world, the guys and ladies that we watch and aspire to check-raise. So somehow I can beat this game? I'm better? I'm worse than these pros for sure, and I'm worse than a good chunk of people that I sit with either virtually or on the felt. So there is absolutely no reason to crash our bankrolls. Don't dip back into the kitty; in fact, set goals and cash out something regularly for her. 500bb, 1000bb, 200bb, whatever. Don't play $15/30 if you have a $600 bankroll, then wonder why she's so hard on you about poker.
  • Forget the hand histories I know Felicia, Linda, and others absolutely hate hand histories on blogs. I'm not a huge, huge fan but am fairly indifferent. I occasionally go on 2+2 and try to follow some 400-comment thread about whether to three-bet UTG with KdJd and a flop of Qd9h7c when a rock raised pre-flop and on your bet with one caller. I mean, I really can't follow much of it; I figure I either raise, call, or fold, I don't chase gutshots, and the other guy catches the gutshot or runner-runner about 30-50% of the time when I have a hand. Maybe you can follow all that, so for that I applaud you. Well, it's all Greek to your wife or girlfriend. You are speaking and all she hears is a buzzing in her ears. Even if she knows what you're talking about (my wife), she really doesn't care, she doesn't empathize with you. How could he call your all-in with KJo and you have big slick? She's probably glad he did and that he spiked his jack anyways. Maybe you'll quit playing. I know you want to share the big pots and the bad beats, but AIM them instead. I'm csquaredcunn if you need to send them somewhere. I'll rejoice if you won and do cuss-word symbols if you lost.
  • Flowers Buy her flowers for no reason. Regularly. My apologies for anyone in the floral business, but go to Kroger and get her two dozen roses for $30. Go to 1-800-Flowers and order some. Splurge on orchids for her. If not flowers, do other stuff. Give her a Saturday for herself. Give her a spa day. Take the kids to Best Buy and leave her to herself. Make sure you're doing the little things that make her feel important. You'll see a change in yourself as well.
  • Make her your first priority Prepare yourself to listen and be attentive to what is going on in her world. Do things that she wants to do.
  • Play your best Set your boundaries, then play your best. Make sure that you aren't rushed into playing looser because you only have two hours to play. Commit that you will adequately prepare yourself to be fully prepared to succeed when you sit down.
  • Watch less poker on television Granted, it does seem to immediately put my wife to sleep now (and poor Ricardo Festejo at the WPT Borgata Open. He brilliantly picks off Al Ardebilli's semi-bluff with 32 on a K72 when he's just holding A2, then a freakin 3 spikes the turn!). Well, you can't watch in prime time. Tape it, TiVo it, and give her the remote. But do watch Bones, American Idol, Survivor, Lost, and 24.
  • Take more breaks and more concentrated playing time Establish pre-established downtimes, either specific days or specific weeks where you don't play. Agree on specific days/times/weeks that you do play. Schedule at least one Vegas, LA, AC, or Tunica trip with one or more buddies or bloggers. You don't have to play 54 holes a day during these trips. I've found the best trips are when I was with one friend, we played certain times and chilled other times (brother-in-law is 15 years younger than me--he chilled, I slept!). Play less might be required, but play more when you do play. Rather than casually playing, realize that it is a privilige that we all really, really enjoy and treat it as such.
  • Give her weekends away Encourage her to visit her best friend in Hilton Head or take a trip with a couple of girlfriends to New York. Not only is there give and take, but you then get to multi-table all you want. Combine that with scheduling babysitting for the weekend with some really hot college sophomore and you really have the perfect weekend, don't you?
  • Take action Do things differently. Quid pro quo, yes or no as Mr. Lecter would say.
  • Escalate If poker puts your relationship at an impasse, then it may simply be symptomatic of bigger problems. If you need to get help, then get help. I myself don't think I could handle marriage counseling as I don't want to really know what she thinks or sees in me, but I would do it if necessary.
  • Love her Be willing to walk away from the table and simply love her, regardless of what it means.
As always, this blog is really more for me than anything, giving me a place to explore, vent, and confide. Hope this series has been interesting and helpful. To Pauly and his crew off to the Playboy Mansion this weekend--I'll be thinking of you on the soccer field tomorrow. But I agree with The Commish that I have more of a chance scoring at home this weekend than these guys do with the bunnies, but maybe Pauly will have a nice spread-eagle shot of two bunnies on a hold-em table. Have a good weekend.


Blogger Fat Dan said...

That is some great stuff. These articles have been very educational. I know that I try to follow most of the ideas that you have set down here. Not doing things around the house is a big problem for me. I need to pickup the slack around the home. But I don't know if poker is to blame, she would have a hard time getting me to do anything even without it. I am just that lazy. That is how I became Fat Dan

10:38 AM  
Blogger Felicia :) said...

I have never really had to address this issue. I am very fortunate.

My Mom was a dealer, and I got Glenn into poker with relative ease. There has never been a problem.

So this is one of the few subjects I have never felt the need to address. My standard one-liner, when asked, has always been, "Get him/her into poker with you, it has to be a mutual love."

Really rotten pat answer, but it's all I know.

10:45 AM  
Blogger Falstaff said...

After the last year and a half of trying, I've finally gotten my wife playing on Full Tilt, so I agree with Felicia - if you can get your significant other into the game with you, you're golden!

Otherwise - follow all these tips, they're good for any relationship/hobby conflict, not just poker. Remember, they usually don't care as much about football or golf, either.

12:45 PM  
Blogger Bloody P said...

Really insightful series.

I'm on the side of the fence where my wife is uber suspicious of my poker play, doesn't understand it, and thinks I'm taking the kids' tuition money and playing high stakes (I'm not).

I'm going to take these pointers to heart.


12:40 PM  
Blogger mowenumdown said...

Great post, I have been happily married for 12 years and there has to be a balance. Not only do I play poker (a lot of poker) I also play golf (a lot of golf). The key is to do things that are important to her, WITH her. I have just spent the majority of the day today planting things and working in the yard with her because that's her thing. Also planning a trip to Savannah to see someone on the cooking channel of all things (no ideal who it is). I live by the the ole saying, if momas not happy nobody is happy.

3:57 PM  
Blogger Drizztdj said...

I'm one of the rare bloggers who has a spouse that refuses to play.

But she does respect my hobby as I respect hers.

1:46 PM  
Blogger Victor_Enriq said...

My greetings and congratulations on your blog (and a very good post) from all the way down here in Chile.I'll be reading more.

My girlfriend understands what I do, I have a relationship with her for more than a year, and she has seen me on the up and downs. Although at the beginning was a bit hard, as here in Chile I dont think many more people are doing this. I think the count cant get very much further than 20.

Thanks a lot for sharing

2:36 PM  
Blogger Klopzi said...

My wife doesn't mind me playing since she realizes that I'm playing with a specific bankroll and not with our rent money.

That being said, my wife doesn't play poker and doesn't really have any hobbies, other than shopping I guess. But I have to drive her to the mall...

I can't say whether or not we've struck a good balance yet for poker time vs. "us" time - I guess we'll find out soon enough. I think it depends largely on how much money I can make in a year.

We've only had the "talk" a couple times in the past year. And sure, my nephew asks me every Sunday whether or not I'm sticking around to play games or whether I have to leave for "poker".

All in all, I'm keeping afloat. Now, if I were playing more than 10 hours a week, there might be problems...

3:07 PM  
Blogger e-e baby said...

Flowers and spa and weekends away? They all sound nice, CC, but are you really just trying to butter her up and get rid of her? Kudos to mowenundown for putting a finger on it... it isn't about giving her "things" it is about PLANNING and MAKING TIME for your partner. Whatever you do together.

The poker absorbs your mind... and your partner knows that! The best thing you can do is anything that shows you are thinking about them. Flowers are nice, but they can't be the only thing. It is better to put time aside and to put some thought into what you do together. And don't just spring it on her: "Hey, Jane. I've made some plans for Thursday evening, if you don't have anything going on?" See, it's a date and it respects her time too. And a surprise! Oooh, who doesn't love surprises???

5:52 AM  
Blogger cc said...

Remind me not to sit at a table with you as you read me like a book, Elizabeth! I've always defaulted to things as an expression of caring, although it has lessened somewhat.

7:30 AM  
Blogger KajaPoker said...

CC - I loved your three part series. I identified with a lot of what you said and you worded some of my emotions very well.

I think the main point of contention for my wife and I is that "this poker business is going to be the end of us". I play low-to-micro-to-freeroll limits in order to not get engaged in a game that I can't walk away from. I built my bankroll from zero and my wife and I share responsibilities for our finances (I make the money and she spends it) so there is no money-leak from InstaCash deposits.

I usually play on Monday nights when she has a class to go to or whenever she goes out with the girls, because any other evening she will frown and get upset. Since I work outside of the home and she is a new mom and homemaker, she feels that our evenings have to be shared time and not "that poker" time.

I tried to get her to play, but she doesn't care for it and would rather play Spider Solitaire all day. So I give in and turn it off. I don't take Vegas vacations or go with the boys to Tunica. And I don't play any more golf because "weekends are family time".

The only poker she does support is my monthly home game with the other guys in the neighborhood. She thinks that this is a great social event for me and takes her evening off at home to relax.

Anyway - great series. I am a new fan of your blog and will try to keep up with your musings.

5:10 PM  
Blogger StatikKling said...

Nice series.. I know that I will be taking some of the points on your list and putting them into action. My wife hates poker, but she alwo knows that I get enjoyment out of it.

When I told her that I was going to the WPBT Winter Classic, her first workds out of her mouth was: 'No. you are not going.' She told me a bit later that she wanted to take it back.. but I think that has set the tone for me and poker.

Somehow, I don't think I'll be playing as much as I do now (maybe 5 hours a week) down to nil. :(

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